Christian Muslim Debate

Can we Trust Today’s Torah?

Part 1

Part 2

Answers to Islam
This organization has something to say about the Accuracy of the Quran as compared to the Torah. A slightly different topic but I believe it is relevant to the topic at hand.
http://answering-islam.org/Bible/jrwhy.html

Who is Jesus?

A message from Alex Kerimli about Christian Evangelism

http://www.mcpc.ca/sermons/alex-kerimli-the-great-commission/

Discovery of an older Quran which is significantly different to today’s Quran.

14 Comments

14 thoughts on “Christian Muslim Debate

  1. Little Lamb

    Comment about the video “Can we trust the Torah?”

    Since the intention of this debate initially to analyze Torah authenticity based on Islamic perspective, so let’s see it from Islamic reasoning

    Part 1, minute 09:54, major of biblical scholar believe Torah was composed 500-900 years after Moses( around 800BC to 200BC)

    Response:

    a) In simplest way to answer : Scientifically speaking no hard physical evidences support those hypothesis.

    b)Islamically speaking if the hypothesis had been true then it would’ve contradict the three great prophets of Islam (Islamic Jesus , John the Baptist & Zechariah) who confirmed the authenticity of Torah in 1 BC -1AD

    Quoted from Quran 61:6
    And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, CONFIRMING THE TORAH which is between my hands (musaddiqan lima bayna yadayya min al-tawrati), and bringing good tidings of a messenger who cometh after me, whose name is the Praised One. Yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say: This is mere magic.

    How could Islamic Jesus be so deluded to confirm a corrupted book ? this would prove that quran is wrong

    Quoted from Quran 19 : 12-15 [Mohsin translation]
    (And it was said unto his son) 0′ John! HOLD FAST TO THE SCRIPTURE(TORAH). And We gave him wisdom when he was a child! And compassion from Our presence and punity, and he was devout. And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious. Peace on him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he shall be raised alive.’

    Here Zechariah who is considered by Muslims as prophet , spoke to John the Baptist to hold on to the Torah’ scripture. Why would a prophet of God like Zechariah so be caught up in delusion for believing a corrupted Torah that he even encouraged his son to hold fast unto ?

    Being faced with these facts , muslims like to play words by excusing that these three great prophets were talking about some part of Torah and not the entire Torah

    However Torah had been codified in Scroll form since the days of old (at least from 400BC if we take DSS as reference). Other significant proof is the arabic word in Surah 19:12 “Scripture” (al-kitaba) means BOOK !

    Furthermore there were no complaints from the three islamic prophets about any slightest corruption of ‘Islamic’ Torah in their days. So it’s hard to deny the fact that these three islamic prophets did affirm the entire Torah as Authentic.

    The problem here is Muslims using atheist or humanist arguments instead of their own way of thinking. Even worse by doing that they certainly would obliterate themselves for objecting the authenticity of ‘Islamic’ Torah before and during the era of three great islamic prophets.

    —Minutes 10:44, Sura 2:79 tells about christians and jews who wrote books and claimed them as revealed by God

    Response: Muhammad was just reporting the already known reality in his time, we all know many apocryphal & pseudepigrapha books circulating around even before Jesus time (e.g Book of Baruch)

    ==================================
    From minutes of 10:50 till end of part 1 actually the muslim fellow was mainly just blabbering about pre-Christ Torah for not being authentic. However again I emphasize, it has already been proved previously that Islam did acknowledge the Torah in Christ’ era as authentic!

    Regarding video at hours 01:05:16, certain matter should be carefully noted here,

    Alex was using a hadith narrated from Ibn Abbas which tells about the belief of early muslims that Torah & Gospel’ fabrication were made AFTER Christ’ era .

    Despite its authentic transmission but according to Ulumul Hadith principal this hadith can’t be used for doctrinal purpose though it could be used outwardly for attacking christianity, because the hadith is identified as “Mauquf” which means it’s not specifically a direct oral teaching of Muhammad.

    Then Alex used Sira’Rasullullah and made claim that it contains the saying of Muhammad, unfortunately every muslims I know considers Sira’Rasullullah can’t be used to established islamic doctrine.

    Fairly speaking those two sources shouldn’t be given heavy emphasis, nevertheless when combine with previous explanation about Torah authentication by the three islamic prophets then all of them prove what a genuine view of Torah within early muslims really were which is the belief of Torah’ corruption AFTER the time of Christ.

    • youwhatm8

      I will summarize my response since this is very shallow argumentation to be honest.

      First few paragraphs:

      a)The crux of the argument is that Moses (pbuh) is a Prophet of God, and God does not reveal contradictory texts. So if you believe that Moses was a Prophet (which the people behind the documentary hypothesis reject) you cannot accept that the Pentateuch today is wholly from God

      b) Deliberate mistranslation by your own hands. Be truthful when refuting people:

      And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you CONFIRMING WHAT CAME **BEFORE** BE OF THE TORAH and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.”

      So, no appraisal of the Torah here.

      Regarding this

      (And it was said unto his son) 0′ John! HOLD FAST TO THE SCRIPTURE(TORAH). And We gave him wisdom when he was a child! And compassion from Our presence and punity, and he was devout. And dutiful towards his parents. And he was not arrogant, rebellious. Peace on him the day he was born and the day he dies and the day he shall be raised alive.’

      That’s not an issue, Yahya (a.s.) is a Prophet and even if the OT is corrupt God can teach him the true Torah and make him hold on to it.

      You say;

      Furthermore there were no complaints from the three islamic prophets about any slightest corruption of ‘Islamic’ Torah in their days. So it’s hard to deny the fact that these three islamic prophets did affirm the entire Torah as Authentic.

      But their opinion regarding the Torah is not given in the Qur’an

      Not gonna respond to the rest, a bit off topic

  2. Little Lamb

    Comment about the video “Can we trust the Torah?”

    How about Torah in Muhammad’ time?

    Here’s an interesting fact based on Hadith of Sunan Abu Dawood

    Abdullah bin Umar (Allah be pleased with Him said) :

    A group of Jews came and invited the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless Him and give Him peace) to al-Quff [a valley of Madinah]. So He came to them in their place of study. They said: O Abu Qasim, a man amongst us fornicated with a woman so judge between them. They placed a cushion for the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless Him and give Him peace) which He sat on. He then called for the Torah which was brought, and He removed the cushion from underneath Himself and placed the Torah on it, and said: I BELIEVE IN YOU and the One who revealed you

    This narration also is recorded in Tafsir Ibn Kathir Q. 5:41

    This Hadith tells about how Muhammad highly esteemed Torah in his time and believed it as Word of God.

    There are no trouble with persons who transmitted this narration except one, Hisham ibn Sa’d , where muslims have been divided in viewing him. One party considers him trustworthy while another party doesn’t.

    This polemic was debated by Bassam Zawadi(muslim apologist) against Sam Shamoun(christian),
    here’s the link http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Osama/zawadi_mhd_torah.htm

    I’ll just supplementing what bro.Sam hadn’t explained:

    Every muslim jurist knows very well it’s unacceptable to establish a fatwa or any ruling based on weak hadith,this is the consensus of general islamic jurisprudence on prohibition for using weak hadith in establishing islamic practice (aqidah) :

    “That acting upon it(the weak hadith) the person does not think that it is something established – in order that he does not attribute to the Prophet what he did not say.” (source : http://sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/75-on-daif-weak-hadith-and-passing-rulings-based-on-them)

    On this case the hadith of Muhammad’ believing the Torah can’t be weak because
    this particular hadith is used for establishing the FATWA & ruling in how to properly place the quran book (source :http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=90801)

    Now the dilemma of course for muslims is how to embrace the fact that Torah in Jesus, Zechariah and John the Baptist up to Muhammad time was authentic because consequently they must admit the Torah of DSS is genuine.

    • youwhatm8

      Moving on

      First para

      Well, what does he mean by that exactly? Does he mean metaphorically speaking, that he (s.a.w) believes that the Torah is from God? Ofcourse, we Muslims believe that. Is he endorsing the whole text? Nothing to indicate that, etc. Because the Qur’an pretty clearly says that jews are writing things and attributing we cannot say that the Prophet was accepting the OT. Nevertheless, the issue was in regards to a stoning law, he (s.a.w) may have said that he believed that was from God. etc. The point is, this is subject to a lot of interpretation.

      Again last few paras I don’t see what there is to respond to

  3. Little Lamb

    Comment about the video “Can we trust the Torah?”

    Video Part 2
    Minutes 3:25 Sadat Anwar complains about different versions of Torah
    Response: Again this argument will only backfire toward muslims based on the previous explanation above. Another thing that can be added, Quran itself had major differences between versions when it was firstly codified.

    The differences were so threatening to muslims’ unity that Caliph Uthman ordered all versions other than his to be burned.

    It’s blatant hypocrisy and quite self delusional for claiming there had been no major differences in Quran when Islamic history clearly tells us about drastic action by Caliph Uthman to burn different versions of quran.

    Sure, it is slightly hard to find differences between versions of Quran since the other versions had already been destroyed. It’s like trying to catch a criminal while he has already managed to destroy the evidences.

    However the uthmanic version itself is divided to seven versions, here are some differences that can be found in them :

    Minor contradiction
    Quran 2: 10 : Hafs has “yakdhibuuna” (they lied) and Warsh has “yukadhdhibuuna” (they were lied to)

    Quran 2: 58 : Hafs has “nagfir” (we give mercy) while Warsh has “yugfar” (he gives mercy) .

    Slightly Major contradiction
    Quran 28:48 (Hafs) “[They are but] two works of magic
    Quran 28:48(Warsh) “[They are but] two magicians

    Major Contradiction
    The verse of Basmallah in Chapter of Fatiha is considered not as Word of God by Warsh version while Hafs version takes the opposite view.

    Both versions agree Basmallah verse was spoken one time by Allah in Chapter of an-Naml, however according to Warsh version the Basmallah phrase in other 143 chapters are some kind of bookmark and not spoken by Allah.

    In opposite Hafs version believes Basmallah in each 143 other chapters were spoken by Allah within those every chapter .

    Quran 7:36
    Those who reject Our verses and stand arrogant against them, – they are the inmates of the Fire. There they shall live forever

    The Hafs version would be condemnable to hell for rejecting the fact that Allah had never said Basmalah in Fatiha Chapter and need no addition, if the Warsh version were right

    In the other hand

    The Warsh version would be condemnable to hell for rejecting Allah’ word in Fatiha if Hafs were right.

    Imagine if Roman Catholic had succeeded in uniting the church and forcefully arranged that all bible versions except R.C version, to be burned, and yet after doing this still the church stuck in disagreement questioning which is the genuine Word of God !

  4. Little Lamb

    Sorry, it’s not my intention to ‘over crowd’ this threat, but since you put this post for ‘training’ purpose
    here are some training resources about the polemic of Basmallah verse
    http://www.answering-islam.org/PQ/Bismillah.htm

    Some videos:
    Basmalah is not part of any Chapter in Quran except chapter of An-Naml

    Basmalah is part of EVERY Chapter in quran except Chapter of at-Tawbah

  5. Little Lamb

    Comment about the Video “Who is Jesus?”

    If i’m allowed to comment the 3rd video, let me comment on the minor issues first,

    ***Minute 40:18 Sadat claimed that many Muslims have dreams about ‘Islamic’ Jesus

    Response : This is certainly just a straight-faced lie to the core, Sadat was twisting the fact of frequent phenomenon occurring in islamic world these days about Muslims seeing the ‘real’ Jesus in the vision and then accepting Him as God &Saviour. (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/07/05/is-jesus-christ-reaching-out-to-muslims-through-their-dreams/)

    Unfortunately Bro.Carlton missed a fine opportunity to question Sadat’ claim & references whether the one that was seen is truly Islamic Jesus or Jesus the 2nd Person of Trinity.

    Another important thing, in Islam it’s forbidden to draw the face of any prophets ! so it’s quite intriguing to know how could the alleged muslim tell that the one they saw was ‘Islamic’ Jesus.

    This also proves Sadat was lying when he claimed many Muslim men look like ‘Islamic’ Jesus in minute 41:33, how could Sadat know the face of Islamic Jesus when Islam clearly forbids depiction of any prophets ? There’s a clear fatwa on prohibition of depicting any prophets , source http://islamqa.info/en/181704

    ———————

    ***Minute 42:05, Sadat criticized statues in church

    Response: I as a non Catholic don’t object the criticism on having statue in church but if the statue is just for ornament then I find nothing wrong with it.

    Muslims should be awaken to the fact that Jesus absolutely won’t ever prostrate Himself toward a Black Stone and even kissing it with reverence.

    Jesus’ prostration toward Temple of Jerusalem was not because of some ‘Sacred Stone’, but because the Presence of God through His Holy Spirit ( Shekinah) was manifested within the Holy of holies.

    ——————–

    ***Minute 42:20,Sadat criticized about eating pork

    Response: a)Jesus as Torah observer also didn’t eat shrimp, crab&shellfish (Lev 11:10) but Muhammad approved the eating of ALL water creatures

    Q 5:96 To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you, a provision for you and for seafarers; but to hunt on land is forbidden you so long as ye are on the pilgrimage. Be mindful of your duty to Allah, unto Whom ye will be gathered.

    b)Jesus as Torah observer also didn’t eat Camel meat(Lev 11:4) yet Muhammad not only he ate camel meat, even more he advised people to drink camel’ urine for medicine

    Q 6:142-44 And of the cattle (He produceth) some for burdens, some for food. Eat of that which Allah hath bestowed upon you, and follow not the footsteps of the devil, for lo! he is an open foe to you. Eight pairs: Of the sheep twain, and of the goats twain. Say: Hath He forbidden the two males or the two females, or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Expound to me (the case) with knowledge, if ye are truthful. And of the CAMELS twain and of the oxen twain.

    Sahih Bukhari Narrated Abu Qilabah:
    Anas said, “Some people of ‘Ukl or ‘Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine)

    c)Jesus as Torah observer didn’t eat animals with paws(carnivore) as being written in Lev 11:27, interestingly although Muhammad also forbid the eating of carnivore still he has allowed one carnivore as exception .

    Reported in book of Imaam At-Tirmithi from Abu ‘Ammaar that he asked Jaabir “Is hyena considered as game?” He said, “Yes.” He asked, “Can I eat it?” He said, “Yes.” He asked, “Have you heard this from Allah’s Messenger ?” He said, “Yes.” [Ahmad, At-Tirmithi] Another narration added: “If one hunts hyena in the state of Ihram he has to slaughter a ram.” [Abu Daawood and Ibn Maajah]
    (source: http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=88523)

    Muhammad has made it lawful to eat Hyena , one of the most dirty&disgusting animal in Africa for its habit to eat carcass and trash.

    To be continued

  6. Little Lamb

    Continuing Comment on the 3rd Video
    Another minor to moderate issues

    ***Minute 44:17-32 Great ! Sadat was comparing belief of God becoming man in order to safe men from sin as similar with terrorism

    ***Minute 45:12-51 Sadat mentioned Sura 5:116 and emphasized on how Allah supposedly would ask Islamic Jesus whether he had ever told his disciple to worship Jesus and his mother as Gods.

    Response: Here’s Sura 5:116
    And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?

    We can clearly see , according to the supposedly All-Knowing Allah, the concept of Trinity is belief in God the Father(Allah), God the Mother(Mary) and God the Son(Jesus). Other thing should be noted Quran had never even once rebutted the belief in God the Holy Spirit.

    The real concept of Trinity had been written in Council of Nicea around 250 yrs before Muhammad this proves Allah who supposedly All-Knowing had made fatal error for mistakenly accused christians for believing Mary as third Person of Trinity !

    ***Minute 48:25 Sadat claimed Quran is compatible with the liberal scholars

    Response: Either Sadat was being ignorant or deceitful, because there are none of those so called liberal scholars who will believe the virgin birth nor any miracles of Jesus while in contrary islam truly acknowledges the virgin birth & miracles of Jesus as true.

    ***Minute 48:48 At last as expected , Sadat mentioned Jesus Seminar

    Response: A group who one of its respected member is Paul Verhoeven, the person who directed ‘Basic Instinct’ (among top immoral movies at the 90’s)and is still making movie with nudity, surely shouldn’t be taken serious in discussing God.

    If Sadat was truly sincere then he should take all bible verses which have already been validated by Jesus Seminar and propose them to Islamic institution in order to be recognized as Allah’ word or at least as Hadith(one level below quran) . I firmly assure he won’t ever do that because Islamic consensus has deemed bible as fully corrupted and unreliable.

    ***Hours 01:42:33 Sadat said he & all muslims believe in THE LARGE PORTION OF THE BIBLE and in 01:43:29 he then continued to say he & all muslims believe the Bible the way the LIBERALS do

    Response: Sadat tended to become more and more like a car salesman rather than an intellectual especially in this particular spot.

    In Islam there are no ‘free interpretation’ as Protestant ‘ , the accepted interpretations though can be differed between madhabs(school of thought) still they have to be recognized by the Ijma(consensus) of mullah at least from within one’s madhab.

    -There are absolutely no beliefs nor practices within all 4 madhabs of Sunni and 3 branches of Shia Islam which regard LARGE portion of bible acceptable to Islamic doctrine .

    -To reject virginal birth, Jesus’ miracles, Moses’ Read Sea miracle and Jonah’ whale story AS Liberals DO, are certainly ABOMINABLE IN ISLAM

    When in front of Christians’ audience Sadat and muslims alike love to give impression as if Islam accept parts of the bible that are not in contrary with their belief, this is just plain&pure deceitful.

    Here’s one effective way to uncover their deception :
    There are only Two Greatest Laws within Judaism and Christianity which Jesus even more has validated them as the essence of Bible . Firstly Love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength and Secondly ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

    These two laws certainly have no contradiction against Islam, in this case please ask any acknowledged Muslims scholar would they confirmed these two laws as the REAL verses from Allah in Torah & Gospel and authenticate them as having similar spiritual value with Quran or at least Hadith ?

    To Be Continued

    • This is a link to the video which was taken by the side of the debate representing Sadat. Unfortunately they did not include the screen presentations in their video. I tried to be impartial in producing the video that I posted at this website. I hope that the Video I produced might be used by Sadat but so far he has chosen to promote the other version of the video.

      I welcome others to comment on the video at this site. Thank you to the Little Lamb who has done so.

  7. Little Lamb

    @James
    I’m living in Muslim country, I don’t want to risk my life in entering Islamic website with the chance my ip address could be detected and be reported to my government. I sometimes use proxy yet I know that won’t be enough, and I don’t have more sophisticated device to cover my ipaddress.

    Regard

  8. Pingback: 1500 year old, handwritten gospel of Barnabas? | Truth Is What Matters

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